Host
Welcome back to another episode of QA talks, where we're talking digital transformation another hot trends and IT leaders today, I'm your host Shelby Skyhawk with sweet fish media. I'm joined by two great speakers to discuss transforming digital experiences in healthcare by reimagining agile. Our guest today are Blake Hill, an award winning senior IT leader and thought leader in digital transformation. And Sachin Srivastava, Vice President of delivery at Cigna at Blake and Sachin, welcome.

Blake Hill
Thank you, Shelby. Thank you. Thank you.

Host
So today, we are talking about transforming digital experiences in healthcare, in particular, by reimagining agile. So first off, Blake, tell us about yourself, and I guess your experience in this space?

Blake Hill
Absolutely, well, again, my name is Blake Hill. And I've been in the IT industry involved in QA in some form or fashion throughout the entirety of my career for the last 20 plus years. And I've had different titles ranging from manager to VP, depending on what it might be. And in different verticals, such as hospitality, consumer credit, health care, finance, custom software development, I'm very passionate about leadership, that you spoke about quality and agile practices. And I've had the opportunity to run Agile and Scrum in numerous places throughout my career, some, you know, at different varying stages of maturity. And, you know, really establishing and implementing them from scratch. Also, while educating executives and adjoining departments throughout the organization on what Agile Scrum is, like writing the curriculum, you know, educating the workforce in its entirety. And, you know, it can be a challenge, you know, for some organizations, you know, they're pretty much steeped in historical or antiquated processes and, or infrastructure, even. So it can be quite a leap, to jump into that new agile mindset.

Host
I think you kind of hit it on the head as far as being stuck in old processes that, you know, obviously, there's a comfort there in staying the same. But if you're saying the same, that you're not improving, you're not, you know, finding productivity. And I think that that's the detriment to a lot of, you know, really companies at large. It's not just within IT departments, right.

Blake Hill
Absolutely, I think, I think there's always this freedom to, or this pressure to always dilute, you know, to deliver quickly and to always be perfect. And, you know, when you adopt that agile mindset, you are really adopting the freedom to actually fail, that doesn't mean you can't still deliver, but you're allowing your team the opportunity to fail fast, and to recover from it and learn from it. And so it's a really, you know, a lot of times I think even corporations were trained to hide bad news. Whereas in Agile, you know, we want to share the bad news, there's that old saying, you know, good news takes the stairs, bad news takes the elevator. And that's really kind of the concept of you need to have if you're going to adopt an Agile process and

Host
mindset well, so considering your experience, like, you know, you've seen organizations view quality with various levels of importance and ownership. So how has this helped shape your view of the role of quality in an organization and its customer experience?

Blake Hill
Well, I think we can all agree that can't name a company that doesn't want to have quality. But I have found in my experience, that there are very few that really want to invest in it. To the extent that they probably should, I think, you know, a lot of companies really just look at QA as a cost center, you know, it's costing us access costing us why instead of maybe changing their point of view, and looking at QA as a as a savings center, you know, they want the benefits from quality, but they don't really want the cost associated with it. And the funny thing is, is that you're gonna end up paying for quality, either way, your customers are gonna find your issues, or you can do it and obviously, it's cheaper if you can find them. So I think it needs to be pointed out, I say this all the time. But you know, quality isn't a column in the organization, it's a row, you know, it cuts across the entire organization, it's everybody's responsibility. Agile promotes that, right? It's not just one, testing is a phase and someone said this one time testing as a phase quality is an approach. So you know, quality, these really start all the way over from the product organization all the way through to deliver it into production.

Host
I'm loving all of these, these quotes and I'm I'm vigorously making notes here because I think you know, the looking at leadership and looking at improvement on a department wide company wide basis, whether that is within the product within software, whatever the you know, the case is, those are important points to make for For a lot of a lot of organizations, so Blake, can you share a real world example of where you felt this approach would be effective, you know that the challenges that you faced and, and the digital or business outcomes that it helped to achieve?

Blake Hill
I would just say, even if I just use my current role, you know, there are different departments, different teams within my organization that are at different stages of adopting the whole agile process. And I will say this, if you're if you're going to have to use a real world example, where it's been really effective, has been, you know, one of the application teams that we currently have, or we have complete and total buy in from the product organization. You know, I think a lot of times people look at agile, and they think that that's just something that the development team does, you know, they're over there doing their agile thing, but really, it starts top down, and you have to absolutely have an engaged product team. That is with you every step of the way. And that is in you know, they're basically just woven into the process with you. If it is, then you absolutely are giving yourself your best opportunity to be successful. You know, secondarily, I would say you really need to have the team buy in, you know, a lot of teams think they're doing Agile, no one does perfect agile, there's always a little bit different flavors from company to company, but you really have to have the team buy in to the team construct, and really empower the team to be self managing, because at the end of the day, that's the goal. The goal isn't to have a project manager, run your agile team, the goal isn't to have your scrum master run US team. And it's certainly not to have one of the executives run a scrum team, the goal is to, you know, enable a scrum team to become self managing and to be self improving. You can help guide them along the way. But I really think that when you have that buy in, at an organization, most most companies want to do Agile, but there has to be a complete buy in. And I think you really need to spend the time upfront on understanding how that team is going to work together. And having the team define where the principles we're going to work, buy and hold dear to where the team can be accountable to one another to deliver otherwise, you're expecting a team. That's never be like getting five basketball players together. You can use the LA Lakers as an example. Let's go get all that let's go get all the All Stars that we want. And we still don't have a good team. You have five great individual players. But if they don't have an agreement by which they're going to work together and whose role is who's, you're not going to have a good delivery, regardless of what you adopt. Yeah, I think that

Host
makes a lot of sense. Sachin. Let me let me turn to you and bring you in here. You've worked in partnership with Blake and have kind of seen this important role that quality digital assurance and quality engineering plays. But first, just to kind of give your background tell us about yourself. And then your role there. It's dignity.

Sachin
Thank shall be and Happy Women's Day week to you. We should have actually congratulated you at the beginning. So yeah, I've been within within the quality engendering we used to call it testing space, it's been there for almost two decades now. And I've seen it evolve from where we used to call it testing and how Blake has been talking about looking at it as just the afterthought, and then bringing it to the foray. And then actually bringing all the testing within the systems and looking at testing is actually a benefit center, rather than really looking at at as a cost center. So having spent these precious years of mine learning, testing and transforming from being a tester to a quality assurance engineer, then to a quality engineer. And now we're looking at digital assurance. So moving the entire testing spectrum within the space of how the business has to think about the quality of the product, instead of actually they continue to think about the processes that they have to deploy and get the end users benefit out of it when they have started thinking that how a quality product is going to be delivered to them. So that's that's the journey that I've seen. So yeah, digital assurance.

Host
that's interesting that it's it's developed from, from testing to QA to this, this term of

Yeah, yeah. And with those iterations, the level of complexity I'm sure has increased because the I guess the bar has been raised, right?

Sachin
Yes, yes, it has actually been raised. And then I think Blake already touched upon how the whole agile word has been transformed, right? Like how we have moved on from that whole SDLC to SDLC. To agile. We used to talk as agile people were like super humans, but all those super humans have not any anymore called super humans anymore. They are they are just an ordinary person. Why? thing the road and then delivering what they're supposed to deliver on on a daily basis, because people have really realized the importance of breaking down into chunks delivering in chunks. And then hearing the bad news first, that's I really liked how Blake really thought about the bad news should take the elevator and come up, rather than taking the stairs. So yeah, that's that's what has happened within the quality space as well, we have actually seen a lot of transformation understanding that the earlier, you can actually identify a defect, or the earlier automation that you can actually do within the space, you will be benefited out of it in the later run. It's like the cost, you're avoiding a million dollar cost rather than just spending a few bucks on identifying the defect within the production within production while not going after production. So,

Host
right. Also, when we look at some of the, you know, the verticals that you know, that that QA is in the healthcare industry is is really just doing its best to keep up with the rapidly evolving needs of this digital era and cigniti it has really helped accelerate this journey. So what are a couple of examples of digital transformation that that you've observed in this industry? And how did it help them achieve their business outcomes?

Sachin
So first of all, I think we have to really congratulate this industry for the last couple of years, for the last two years, they have seen an enormous amount of evolution in the last few years, the pipeline has really squeezed itself, the and they have to work within the regulatory framework that has been designed for them. So hats off to everybody who's working within this whole space. And not just not not just the frontline workers, but the amount of pressure that all the IP developers or the testers or everybody who has been involved in creating the space hats off to everybody who has been involved in that. So, the way we add security actually look at it is we be looking at it, we have divided this industry into privately three spaces, we look at clinical devices and testing wherein we have been doing a lot of class one two and three level class level device testings, then we have divided we have taken up healthcare and life sciences application testing, wherein we work with a lot of farmers, peers, providers, and we validate their applications, then there then comes the hospital clinical systems testing, which again talks about the application level testing for the which which is provided for the hospitals. Now, a lot of IoT, regulatory and mobile based connection connectivity based testing that we have done in the past couple of years, and we have really seen a lot of challenges doing that and delivering in the time space that we have had. So that that's something that that we have really been challenged and delivered at the same time within secretaries framework that we have. So, we have seen a lot of end to end testing, which is going we have done a lot of you see a lot of process automation testing that we have done in the past and increase the automation coverage for our partners, so that they are able to deliver at a faster pace. So, that's something that we have really seen in a couple of in the last instances that we have been involved with a lot of risk based testing also has come in place because the delivery has to happen very fast. And so, that door sounds very risky, but still, if it is done within the parameters and the framework that we are talking about within the regulatory norms that we are talking about risk based testing is one of the things that we do within the SEL space. So, it is not it is not something which is unknown to the board and which doesn't happen. And it is not really it is not like it has not been at a life critical or at that particular thesis, but on the applications which which are not like very critical. So that that space

Host
also such an when you talk about, you know this this adoption you know, there are still some or even many traditional healthcare IT and QA leaders that still view digital assurance pretty far out on the horizon. So given your experience with multiple enterprises, why do you think they should even consider their digital assurance readiness right now?

Sachin
So it really surprises me shall be the way that it leaders or the QA, QA directors are still looking at quality as afterthought. Yeah, this this really surprises me because we are working with the Gen Z. We are talking about Tiktok videos were in the attention span is not even three minutes. It is just a few seconds. So how can somebody wait for a product to be out in the market? Get engineers together. So if everybody's thinking about that, then we have to start thinking about chunks to be delivered. And as Blake was talking about, everything is moving agile. And we have to and all the IT leaders have to start thinking about delivering in chunks, and delivering in pieces, and at the same time, do not deliver that is going to have an After Effects. So maintain the quality of the product, while delivering something which is very, which is going to be very, very useful for the for for your end product user.

Host
Well, Blake, let me come back to you. So your approach towards ownership of customer experience really requires a level of buy in from various levels and functions across the organization. So can you talk about how you help them really foresee this? The qualitative and the quantitative benefits of this? And are there are certain metrics that you use to help track their success?

Blake Hill
I think of all the questions you could ask me, I could tell you about this one topic for probably three hours. And I think Sachin could probably tell you that I am super passionate about this question. So I will just say that I learned from a CEO that I worked for one time, she would always say in God, we trust, everyone else needs to bring metrics. And you know, I'll never forget that I don't know where she got it from shout out to Tony Portman, but she taught me that and she is right. So basically, when doing this adaptation over to agile, you know, you debate the first thing is, you know, promising, we talked about the product team already, but ensuring them that you're going to follow through on what you say the benefits of agile are, which is transparency. So in doing that part of that transparency is metrics. And we're going to share the metrics good, bad or indifferent. So to give an example, at the place I currently work, we, we knew that maybe the development team did not have a lot of trust built up with the organization at large, especially with the product team. So I thought it would be a good idea to employ Net Promoter Score. Now Net Promoter Score is typically used for marketing companies and, and companies that have a product that consumers are consuming. But I thought, You know what, we have consumers that are consuming the software that we're writing internally. So let's ask them how we're doing because they're our customers, even if they aren't outside of the company. So we established a baseline, I knew it wasn't going to be pretty. And we got our first score. And if you know about NPS, it's from minus 100 to 100. Basically, anything below at 20 is not good. Our first score was a minus 37. And so you know, it's kind of like you know how it is in Phoenix once it's 115 degrees, was it minus 37 and minus 100. It's or sports or scream 150 and 120 degrees, it's just bad. We had a bad we had a bad score, and we surfaced it, we owned it. And you know, some people were a little bit upset about that score, but I just kind of told the team look, we're going to be part of the team that takes that minus 37, and turns it into a positive score. And you'll be the reason why. And so we did that. And every month we publish the score minus 37, went to minus 22. Went to minus four after two months, then it jumped to 20 jumped to like, I think was 3444 and 55 has been our high watermark. You know, so that kind of a metric, which is really speaking to your velocity and your quality, then we serve as metrics like what's our deployment success? What is I have the concept of ideal velocity, like how many defects that we bring into the system? And how many story points did we robbed from ourselves that we could have delivered in the sprint had we not had this many defects that we had to remediate within the sprint? So I've come up with a formula that would roughly you know, come up with, here's what ever here's what each defect we find in a sprint costs us. So there's the concept of ideal velocity versus actual velocity, the two lines will never meet, because there's no such thing as a no defect release that you couldn't find a single defect. You know, we track things like defect leakage, like what's our defect leakage into production. And then we track scope creep, even what scope creep happens after the sprint starts, and where did it come from? Did it emanate from product that emanate from it, because sometimes we're our own worst enemies, right? And then lately, we've also got defect quality. And that's where, you know, the defects that we're writing, actually, resulting in fixes to the system or future fixes to the system, or we wasting the time of the development team and our own QA team by writing defects that didn't amount to a fix for whatever reason, right? We had bad data, we didn't understand the requirement, we tested the wrong thing. You know, whatever it might be. So those things are all you know, it's a long explanation. But again, I think if you have those metrics, that's how you get buy in at various levels when you're when you're open, honest and you're communicated, and you're pushing information to them, instead of them having to pull it from.

And that's that's really a mind shift change.

Yeah, absolutely. It's not, it's not the way a lot of people, a lot of people don't want to be. You know, like I said, I think we're taught to oftentimes hide mistakes, keep keep news, quiet and hear, you're totally honest. But you have to give that framework to the team that it's, you know, the freedom to fail, you know, agile always preaches what fail fast. So you've got a, you have to have buy in from the executives that they're okay with that?

Host
Well, you've touched on this a little bit like but you know, coming to how these concepts can be put into action, by a model such as agile, can you speak to the strengths of Agile Scrum, and that, with this that really stand? Stand out in your experience?

Blake Hill
Right? Well, we did talk about failing fast, we've talked about transparency, I think another thing that I love about Agile is its accountability. And it's not an accountability to a manager, or a director or a PM, it's accountability to your teammates that you're working with. And you know, if Bob is up here reporting day after day that he's made no progress on the user story, and Sally is over here killing it, and she's finished three of them. At some point, Bob is going to get a little bit uncomfortable, and people are going to wonder, well, what's going on here. So you have a level of accountability to one another where the team doesn't fail. And I think that's the other thing that Agile does if you spend the right amount of time, and you spend the investment upfront, in really identifying the behaviors, and the values that this team and I mean, really have a meeting to discuss this as a team and say, How are we going to work? What do we agree upon? What are the values that we hold, dear, that we will collectively agree to as a team. And these are the these are the actual things that we will hold each other accountable to, and we have the right to call each other out if we're not following our own agreement and the own morals, if you will, we have told ourselves that we will hold as our standard. And I think if you take the time to do that with an Agile team. You know, it takes a little bit of time, just like you've heard before, in any psychology class, you've got your forming and your norming and storming and you go through all these different stages. And as a team works together, you know, you're not going to get a self managing team right out of the box, they need to work together. But if if you're patient and you use that agile framework, every month, month, over month over month, you can see that teams will improve. And then they become self managing to where when you're doing your retros you're having a time to self correct. At the end of every sprint, what did we do? What did we do wrong? What could we do better? What could we do more of what could we do less of? So I think that's those are the things that I really love about agile, it really does build a cohesive team if you

Host
write well and build it the right. So when you talk about building this, this better cohesion. And in order for a team to adopt this Agile Model, there are certainly values that you need to instill to really achieve this Agile transformation. But let me ask so if a team itself is, is really locked in to owning this agile process, and not being afraid to fail, and not being afraid to, you know, to come come forward with those mistakes? How do you get a team to trust that the higher ups the ones above them, that may not be as invested in this agile, you know, process and instead are a little bit more of the old school, where you're looking at mistakes? And you're basically there's the kind of that fear, then from the from your team? How do you how do you instill values to really achieve this better cohesion between, you know, the, you know, IT team, the team above it, you know, the corner office folks and really create create that cohesion?

Blake Hill
Well, I was pretty fortunate. Where so you're right. That's a very valid point, I think. And I think that's where people that are not, you know, what they would call the pigs, the people that have the skin in the game, you know, delivering within the sprints, but the chickens, if you will, you know, to coin a term, where people with the titles, that's their job, they need to help pave that road. And the other thing is, is that that's where you stand up for your team, you know, you the team needs to know, if you're a manager, if you're a director, did you've got their back and then you'll stand out for the team. And I think the other thing that's very, very important that I alluded to a little bit earlier is that I was fortunate in my current position where I was able to get an audience with the CEO with a CA With the CIO, and I was able to educate, here's what we're going to do. And here's how we're going to do it. And here's why we're going to do it. And here's the tool we're going to use to do it with when you approach it that way, and some other, you know, business owners throughout the company I got to talk with as well kind of like an internal Agile Scrum tour, they set the team up for success. And then it also helped alleviate any gap or any chasm that would happen between their expectations and how we do work. Your point is very valid, if that education doesn't take place, and the team's over here doing one thing, then there's no, there's no cohesion across the organization. So there has to be buy in from the top down, not from the bottom up, they have to understand what the teams are going to do and how they're going to deliver and how they're going to report those metrics. And, you know, I make sure to take those metrics and get them in front of everybody that has a title. We don't want to hide anything, we want to be very, you know, when we have a bad release, we want to own that release, we want to own it and say, our escape defect count went up, didn't go in the right direction. And here's what we're going to do to fix it. So I think it's all about education and communication, right? I mean, that's, that's 80%, it seems like in any job that you have, it's all about communicating to make sure that those people can't make assumptions. And that's what I was alluding to pushing information, especially to executives. And instead of waiting to be asked, and plus, when you push information, you control the narrative. So I think that's really important. It's the whole managing your managers aspect. You know,

Host
so let's say that the organization has effectively adopted the Agile Model. And is your your approach of seeing the IT team as a customer service team, for the organization? What recommendations would you offer to your peers to really continuously accelerate an organization's digital transformation?

Blake Hill

Well, we've we've already talked about metric flows are absolutely imperative, you know, you if you don't have metrics, you're basically a sailboat in the ocean, you're going somewhere, but you don't know where you're going. And if you have metrics, you know exactly where you're headed. So you've got to have those, and they need to be communicated. The second thing I would say is in any way that you're able to, you need to move quality left, you hear it all the time shift left is the new term, it's been around for a couple of years, but people say it all the time. And so that's to understand that, you know, quality just doesn't happen, the testing department quality needs to happen in the development team as well. Are they writing unit tests? Are they doing peer reviews? Do we have a static code analysis tool that we can use, it's also testing, you know, for, you know, security issues and those types of things for OWASP. So anything you can do to establish quality earlier, and then obviously, automation, automation of your deployments, automation of your builds, continuous integration, continuous deployment, and having your regression scripts, you know, automated to where the part of the deployment process and can be run in multiple environments at any time. You know, we had, recently we've completed a regression suite that, you know, took us 32 hours to run manually. They're now in the optimization phase of those scripts, and there was a 32 hour manual process. And now it's down to about, I want to say at last count for three and a half hours, the goal, we should be able to get it below two, and we could probably even get it down to like up from there, after we're done optimizing the scripts is get them run on multiple agents, and it could be an eight to 10 minutes to run our entire regression suite. So when you do things like that, and you put $1 cost to that, you can say, hey, every time I run this, I'm saving $2,000. And you know, it's a it's a it's a way to continuously accelerate and and, you know, make your teams deliver faster and with quality. So I think metrics, you know, shift left on quality and automation are the three things that I would say would be the way to effectively agile

Host
Sachin coming back to you, based on the ongoing digital adoption, can you share some insights as well and to the adoption of digital assurance and quality engineering, those those best practices that are really particularly gaining momentum in the healthcare industry?

Sachin
So from an adoption perspective, I have to talk about, I think, the role of the CTO and the CIO has actually changed a lot in the last couple of years. When they are looking at what they're looking at everybody, like the CEO, the chief data officer is somebody whom they are actually talking to the CIO. So is somebody whom they are talking to the Chief Marketing Officer or somebody whom they are talking to while actually they're putting their strategy together. The information strategy, the or the IT strategy is not just run by one single person within the organization anymore. So the CIOs are actually talking to everybody. And the whole digital job adoption is really looking at around the eyes. IoT data, how you're using your data to comply to the analytics, how you're able to predict your things in the long run, and then everybody's moving towards cloud, right? Like, the whole, the whole platform is a service, which is the new buzzword in the market, or it has been the buzzword in the market. It's like, everything as a service is now available for us. So the cloud migrations are happening. And while the cloud migrations are happening, we are also seeing a lot of digital adoption. For cybersecurity, it's like one of the biggest things that we have to really look out for is cybersecurity. So that's in the seaso is actually coming in talking to the CIO and telling that, okay, fine, you are putting a strategy together but don't harm the security or the presence of how the people are looking at us, it should be in a very, very secure, formidable way. So that's, that's what we are actually looking at from a digital adoption perspective, everything is connected, everything how we have been doing the whole tele medication in the last couple of years, right? If you see the electronic verification visits, right, all the paper has gone out, you have to while you're visiting your doctor, it's even validated that how you're not even required to visit a doctor if you do not have the symptoms as such. So how did we adopt to that cycle in the last couple of years, so a lot of this change that has come in because of because of all the change that has happened within the digital space, we have to align everything together and look at every aspect of quality within the data, how the data is being looked at how the security of that data is being looked at, if we are leaking out anything. And as Blake was really pointing out the metrics around each and every adoption, and each and every aspect of the change that we are actually looking at, if you're not going to talk about all of that, through the metrics through the data, we will not be able to proceed further in a in a cohesive way. That's what I would say.

Host
Well, you mentioned the telemedicine and some of these next gen technologies that you know, before the Coronavirus were limitedly available, but you know, they really came into the forefront, because are there other examples of these next gen technologies that are really gaining traction that you could share?

Sachin
Yes, I think you would have heard of you would have heard about smack stack, which is like social mobile analytics and cloud adoption, right. So, this is this is everything has been roaming around that. And a few other things that I would like to really how the whole thing is going to be looked at is how do you communicate digitally right like how all the data is being driven? how the data is being driven, how fast you are actually interacting with your customer? How fast are you getting that data? How are you assimilating that data? And how are you predicting the data. So, within this whole healthcare industry, we have we have always talked about prevention is cure right? Now, I think that the the new concept is going to be prediction is cured. Now you have these smart devices, which are actually able to predict your blood glucose, right? So the prediction is going to be a cure for the longevity has gone up, we are looking at better healthcare systems. So data for sure is going to be something that we have to be worried about how you are gathering the data, how you are putting your data together, how you're assimilating your data, how you're putting your analytics around the whole data framework, we used to talk about data warehouses, we used to talk about data lakes, now we are talking about data fabric. So Data Fabric is nothing but how you're stitching your whole data together and then being able to use that in in a proper fashion in a proper way. So and within the whole healthcare space, if we I only have to talk about there has been an adaption of service bots. I don't know if you've heard about them. But then how service bots have come into play is because you've seen like, so much we have lost in the last two years. So the service bots have been been I've been hearing I've not seen any. And thankfully, I've not seen any, because I've not visited the hospitals a lot in the last couple of years. But then the service bots have come into play where in a few very, very simple things like understanding somebody needs and just taking that data and passing on to the nurse. So that so that the so that it can be assimilated better, it can be actually understood better and the and the clients can be dealt with better. So the service bots are actually going to be one. One thing that we'll have we'll all have to look into. And automation of everything. While the data is getting is moving at the pace, digital assurance we'll always be moving around the automation that we are actually going to be able to provide. Now. We you heard the example that Blake was Talking about 38 hours of regression testing, which is no more a norm, which can never be a norm, we are actually creating services which are small enough to be validated and automated, and they can be assimilated at a later stage. And they can be actually created in such a way that the whole business user experience has not halted or altered at the same time we are developing and delivering and a quality product is coming out in the market.

Host
Well, Sachin, for our listeners who might have follow up questions or want to stay connected, how can they reach out?

Sachin
Oh, so security is signaling technologies is one of the largest digital assurance providers in this space. And they can always reach out to Cigna, t.com. And we have actually deployed one of the biggest bots over there, and you can reach out to the board that they reach out to us. Or you can always reach out to our marketing team or you can reach out to me we'll probably post contact address and contact details.

Host
Excellent. Well, Blake Sachin, thank you so much for joining me.

Sachin
Thank you, Shelby. Thanks for having us.

Host
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Thank you for having us. And

thank you listeners for tuning in to QA talks. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a new episode. Until next time, I'm Shelby Skyhawk